Here is a new modification for the Randall RH50 or RG50tc tube combo/head. This 50W Randall tube amp is an affordable model made for "metal" music but there are a few drawbacks. First of all, it has almost no clean channel headroom. The clean channel distorts when its level is set above 12:00 o clock, especially when the clean boost is on. Then, the overdrive (1 or 2) channel just doesn't have all the gain and lead to support "metal" playing styles and it gets quite bassy. Note definition disappears when the gain is set to max.
To address those issues, I looked at several other tube amp/preamp designs and found an interesting story about the Mesa Boogie V-twin pedal. The V-twin has a small power amp module in it that's based on a LM-386 opamp chip. The LM-386 chip is also famous for being the heart of all "Smokey:" amps and many distortion pedals(especially d.i.y. ones). The LM-386 sounds great when driven by another dist./od/metal pedal and it's fairly easy to work with. That's how I decided to incorporate an LM-386 chip module inside the RG50 (OD channel) preamp. This lm386 module can be used with various tube or ss amplifiers to boost the guitar signal or as a nice od channel/preamp.
As for the clean channel, I made it less bassy and gave it less gain/distortion by changing a few resistors and capacitors. Then, the eh12AT7 driver tube was swapped with a more open sounding sovtek 12AX7a one.
The original and modified schematics of the RG50T amp are shown below. The LM-386 module is drawn as a yellow box on the RG50 schematic but you can see its details on the LM-386 schematic. The lm386 module power Voltage is +15V (6-16V are O.K.) and can be found inside the pcb at pin number8 of the jrc4558 IC chips (it's marked as "+15V" on the pcb, nearby the power relays). The caps and resistors I changed are drawn in small red boxes on the rg50 schematic and beside them is their new value. All resistors are 1/4W unless otherwise specified. Be careful with the polarity (+/-) of some large(a few uFarads) electrolytic caps .
I also changed the appearance of my Rh50 amp as I like to see the tubes when running hot! It's easy: I just flipped the amp's metal chassis and put its faceplate at the back side of the wooden box (see pics).
Randall RG50, RH50, RG50tc tube amp design:
http://www.echostar.pl/~zelman/RG50TCSchemat.pdf
My modified RG50 design based on the above schematic:
(right click on it and "open in new tab" to enlarge).
Working inside a tube amplifier can be dangerous if you don't know the basic safety practices for this kind of work. If you aren't prepared to take the time to learn and apply the right precautions to keep yourself safe, don't work on your own amp. You can seriously injure yourself or get yourself killed. This section is not intended to be a complete guide to safety in tube equipment, just to hit the high points as refresher for those of you who have some experience. The best way to learn the requirements and practices for safety in tube equipment is to find someone who will teach you one on one.
To address those issues, I looked at several other tube amp/preamp designs and found an interesting story about the Mesa Boogie V-twin pedal. The V-twin has a small power amp module in it that's based on a LM-386 opamp chip. The LM-386 chip is also famous for being the heart of all "Smokey:" amps and many distortion pedals(especially d.i.y. ones). The LM-386 sounds great when driven by another dist./od/metal pedal and it's fairly easy to work with. That's how I decided to incorporate an LM-386 chip module inside the RG50 (OD channel) preamp. This lm386 module can be used with various tube or ss amplifiers to boost the guitar signal or as a nice od channel/preamp.
As for the clean channel, I made it less bassy and gave it less gain/distortion by changing a few resistors and capacitors. Then, the eh12AT7 driver tube was swapped with a more open sounding sovtek 12AX7a one.
The original and modified schematics of the RG50T amp are shown below. The LM-386 module is drawn as a yellow box on the RG50 schematic but you can see its details on the LM-386 schematic. The lm386 module power Voltage is +15V (6-16V are O.K.) and can be found inside the pcb at pin number8 of the jrc4558 IC chips (it's marked as "+15V" on the pcb, nearby the power relays). The caps and resistors I changed are drawn in small red boxes on the rg50 schematic and beside them is their new value. All resistors are 1/4W unless otherwise specified. Be careful with the polarity (+/-) of some large(a few uFarads) electrolytic caps .
I also changed the appearance of my Rh50 amp as I like to see the tubes when running hot! It's easy: I just flipped the amp's metal chassis and put its faceplate at the back side of the wooden box (see pics).
Randall RG50, RH50, RG50tc tube amp design:
http://www.echostar.pl/~zelman/RG50TCSchemat.pdf
My modified RG50 design based on the above schematic:
(right click on it and "open in new tab" to enlarge).
The lm-386 post-od preamp module :
LM-386 datasheet(pins etc)
The jrc4558 pins:
The mesa V-twin dist pedal:
The new Randall RH50t head box:
the old Randall rh50 look:
Here is something very important:
*** SAFETY WARNING ***
READ THIS FIRST!!!!!
READ THIS FIRST!!!!!
Working inside a tube amplifier can be dangerous if you don't know the basic safety practices for this kind of work. If you aren't prepared to take the time to learn and apply the right precautions to keep yourself safe, don't work on your own amp. You can seriously injure yourself or get yourself killed. This section is not intended to be a complete guide to safety in tube equipment, just to hit the high points as refresher for those of you who have some experience. The best way to learn the requirements and practices for safety in tube equipment is to find someone who will teach you one on one.
BASIC REQUIREMENTS
- UNPLUG IT FIRST Pretty self explanatory. Do not, ever, ever, leave the equipment plugged in and start work on it. Leaving it plugged in guarantees that you will have hazardous voltages inside the chassis where you are about to work. This is like setting a trap for yourself.
- LET IT DRAIN If the amp has been turned on recently, the caps will still have some high voltage left in them after the switch is turned off. Let it sit for five minutes after you turn it off.
- SUCK IT DRY When you open up an amp, you need to find a way to drain off any residual high voltage. A handy way to do this is to connect a shorting jumper between the plate of a preamp tube and ground. This jumper will drain any high voltage to ground through the 50k to 100K plate resistor on the tube. To do this successfully, you will need to know which pins are the plate pins. Look it up for the amp you're going to be working on. You'll need to know this for the work anyway. Leave the jumper in place while you do your work ( high voltage electrolytic caps can "regrow" voltage like a battery sometimes. Really. ) Remember to remove it when you finish your work.
- TEST IT Take your multimeter and ground the (-) lead. Probe the high voltage caps and be sure the voltage across them is down, preferably to less than 10V.
- BUTTON IT BACK UP FIRST Take the shorting jumper out. Put the chassis back in the cabinet, making sure all of your tools, stray bits of solder, wire, etc. are out of it. You don't have to actually put all the screws and so forth back in if you believe more work might be needed, but make sure that the chassis is sitting stably in the cabinet and won't fall out. At the end of a listening test, either continue buttoning up if you're done, or go back to UNPLUG IT FIRST.
Nice job,
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήyou get better clean with a 12at7
in phase inverter ? But less gain distorsion too ?
I've the Combo version (randall rg50tc). I recently rebias my el34 with
from 45mv to 35mv, calm down the mushy sound a lot, i got nice clean and distortion now !
In the
future i may change el34 to 6l6gc if possible to get a sound closer to mesa ...
And i hear that set a 12aT7 in V1 make the sound more flexible too.
What do you think ?
Many thanks for your comment!
ΔιαγραφήYes, you could get better clean and less "farty" od tones with a set of 12AT7 tubes in V1 and V4 places.
That's because the 12AT7 has less gain and more headroom than the 12AX7.
In any case, I believe that modifying the amp just a little bit(e.g. change a few resistors and some small capacitors) could make a lot more difference than just changing a preamp tube, and it will cost less too!
Otherwise, all high gain amps with an OD channel and a set of Boogie tubes, would sound pretty much like a boogie... It's the topology of the circuit that makes the major difference in tone.
Cheers,
Thanos
So your mod permits to sound closer to a boogie ?
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήI haven't got electronics skills so i can't do this kind of circuit mod alone.
That's too late i've bought my TAD 6l6gc !
But i will have to mod the amp to get a smallest bias, you can look at this mod if interested ( http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2237020-Randall-RH50T-RG50TC-mods ) especially the end about tube change ! He can get a more mesa sound (good clean and mesa rectifier OD like !).
You have the stock tubes el34 ? And you bias at what voltage ? Thx for your sharing
Hi!
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήYes, my RG50 mod makes the amp sound a little closer to a boogie preamp(e.g. a twin tube pedal) on the overdrive channel.
To get even closer to a boogie rect sound, you need to put a set of 6L6 tubes in your rg50tc and bias it correctly!
The 6L6 mod is fairly simple(just put a wire across the R147 resistor and bias the amp) but it should be done by a professional because voltages inside a tube amp are lethal.
Anonther issue is the output transformer load for the 6L6. You should ask your amp tech if it would be a good idea to connect the 8Ohm speaker to the 4Ohm output of the rg50tc in order to load the 6L6s correctly.
My rh50 has the stock el34s in it and I biased it at a reasonable 40mV voltage (32-45mV are Ok though 32mV is a little cold bias).
-Cheers,
Thanos
Hi !
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήI've do the 6l6GC mod (remove resistor), not perfectly because i didn't suceed bias to 30mV, i can only do 33 mV and 35 mV, maybe i should bias both to 35 mV to have the same voltage. (if you have any ideas btw ! )
So it move my sound from england to america (or atlantic ocean at least ! ).
I maybe take a look on your mod soon. So when you cross a component at your mod shematic, it means that you replace it by a jumper ?
And someone advice me for preamp tube this settings :
V1 : JJ ECC803S gold V1 , to keep high gain but with clarity
V2 : 5751 EH, softer than 12ax7 to calm down
V3 : Tung Sol ECC803S gold , very high gain to re catch the gain ...
V4 : a 12at7/ECC81 balanced (made for phase inverter)
What do you think of it ? =)
Cheers !
Vito
35mV should be Ok for the tubes I think. Just make sure the tubes have a matched bias setting and keep the 50Hz "hum" produced by the poweramp as low as possible.
ΔιαγραφήIt's nice you got that US style sound out of these 6L6s! The preamp tubes v1-4 you propose, seem just fine but I 've not tried them.
As for the mod, when a component is double crossed, it means you have to remove it completely. Otherwise, you have to replace it with a new value component as shown on the schematic.
-Thanos
Hey guys... I have the randall rg50tc also (soon to be converted to a head)... I'm new to tube amps... I really like the Clean channel but so-so on the overdrive.
ΔιαγραφήFrom left to right looking at the back of the amp there are the 2 power tubes, then 4 preamp tubes.
My question is which pre-amp tube is for which section? Clean channel? overdrive channel? or is that how it even works? lol let me know what you think...
Hello James,
ΔιαγραφήThe OD channels are a bit presence-less and that's why there are a few mods for that.
Tube change will make a difference but the result is more subtle than a circuit modification.
Right next to the power tubes is the V4 phase inverter tube. It could be raplaced with a 12at7 or 12ax7 tube. It's common for all channels.
Next to it is the V3 preamp tube. It's also common for all channels and it does not produce distortion OD sounds.It's used to drive the EQ. Changing this one could alter the EQ tone a bit.
The V2 tube(next to V3) is the tube that produces most of the distorted signal when the OD channels are selected. So, changing the V2 tube could make a difference in the OD channel tone.
V1 is the 1st preamp tube and it's common for all channels. It's the tube that sets the overall gain and signal sensitivity of the preamp.
If you need more OD gain, change V2 (and maybe V1) to higher gain ones. If you need more clarity, replace the V2 12ax7 with a smoother one(e.g. a 7025 tube).
Cheers,
Thanos
Awesome thanks... I got the head cabinet all built... now to experiment with tubes... I'm trying to get less gain (less metal more grunge sound) on the OD channel. I'll pick up maybe a 5751, a 12at7 and a 12au7... whats a 7025? is there a chart or something for the order of gain??
ΔιαγραφήThanks again, very helpful info!
Hello James!
ΔιαγραφήLower gain preamp tubes will reduce gain and clean up the signal a bit.
The 7025 tube is essentially a 12AX7A tube. It's got a bit less gain than the 12ax7B type tubes but the 12at7 and 12ay7 are even lower gain tubes.
Here are a few interesting articles on preamp tubes:
http://www.thetubestore.com/12AX7-Tube-Review
http://www.thetubestore.com/Gain-Factor
http://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech_corner/12ax7_comparison_of_current_made_tubes
Thank you,
Thanos
Hey,
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήI got a question, did you solder the component in top or bellow the circuit ?
Yesterday i check my plate voltage and get 495V, so i bias my tube properly, at 42 and 44 mV , they are not perfectly matched and thanks to the "hum" noize, i got it !
And i got the sound now ! Very american fenderistique clean, and nice overdrive mesa tone ...
I love it ! And advise you alot if you like the american sound :)
I curious to know hot it could improve my sound by doing your mod, and replacing the preamp tubes =)
I soldered the components on a new mini size board, wrapped it with tape and placed it on top of the amp's pcb.
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήIf you like the sound you get now, don't modify your amp because any mod will alter the tone. My mod makes the amp a metal beast on both od channels. So, if you want blues style tones, don't follow my mod. I could post another mod that's less aggressive in terms of gain.
A new set of preamp tubes might do the trick.
Cheers
Hi ! It's been a long time :P
ΔιαγραφήYou could probably make a sound check with before/after if possible (with a mic like sm57 or similar).
I found my tone nice, i prefere the red OD wich sound more modern than the green one, but it do not have enought attack to get agressive palm mute, my tube screamer boost a lot my palm mute but the sound became less warm (bass lost ... ).
Do you have any suggestions ?
I think i will do the tube preamp change.
Hello!
ΔιαγραφήYou could mod your TS pedal to get more bass out of it or just change the C6 capacitor on yout randall amp. C6 cap is normally a 4.7nF one but you could replace it with a 10nF to get more bass at the input of the amp.
The ts pedal mod in also a good option here. Which ts pedal version do you have?
Cheers, Thanow
Hi !
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήI've a Maxon OD808, the "original" tube screamer so.
Or maybe i could correct it with my Equalizer in the loop
An EQ pedal is very useful! You could connect your eq pedal on the fx loop to boost the bass a bit.
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήAn eq pedal could also be used as variable frequency booster in front of the amp to simulate different pickup tones, It could also be used as a treble boost, a mid boost, a bass boost, a wha-like pedal and so on.
-Thanos
this is awsome... thanks... I have the rg50tc combo and want to convert it to a head... I think I'll try the upside-down set up too! Très Cool!
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήYohann Da Silva has left a new comment on your post "Randall RH50 tube amp mod!":
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήHi.
You're saying you changed a few components to mod the clean channel but did you also removed the components "crossed" on the new schematic (R23, R25, R26, R208 and C200) ?
I just want to make sure I won't make my amp blow up.
Thanks.
Yes, I did replace a few components of the clean channel circuit. At the same time, I removed (crossed out) 5 components in order to increase the Gain of the OD channels. Your amp won't blow up by removing these components, it's just going to sound differently. Just make sure you know what you're doing here!
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήAmplifiers usually blow up when not used or serviced (e.g. biased) properly but that's not the biggest problem. Electrical shocks are way more dangerous! Be careful guys!
OK thanks for the reply, I understand those "crosses" on the schematic now.
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήYour blog is awesome thanks for all the tips you are providing :)
Sorry to bother you again Thanos but if I want to make those mods switchables (the components changed for clean, the ones removed for OD and the LM86), would it be necessary to use switches and wires which can handle high voltages or not ?
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήMy guess is that I should for the C31 but not necessarily for the others components which seem to handle no more than 100V initially.
Sorry but I don't really know much about tube amps for now.
Hello!
ΔιαγραφήYes, you could place high voltage heavy duty switches and cables to make these mods switchable. It's a very good idea. You should use high voltage caps, switches and cables for better insulation, durability and performance. Don't get cheap parts for this. Always be extra careful when modifying the amp as there are lethal voltages stored in some electrolytic capacitors!
Cheers,
Thanos
OK thanks.
ΔιαγραφήAs for the safety I know Tube amps are dangerous and I am actually collecting informations to safely discharge those caps before working on the amp.
Hello Thanos,
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήFirst of all, thank you for all these valuable informations about this amp. I own one and it's good quality/price amp.
My Randall RH50T most likely came with sovtek 5881's. This head have a volume drop problem. When i turn the amp on, the volume drops dramatically after 5 or 10mn. Someone told me that it could be a bias issue.Do you have any idea about what's going on ?
My second question is about the power tubes :
I've been reading that the 5881 are basically more a 6L6 than real 5881. Is this true ? Can i replace the 5881 with 6L6 without harming the output transformer ?
This is my preamp section :
V4 : Mesa STR 12AX7A
V3 : GT 12AT7
V2 : Mesa STR 12AX7A
V1 : Mesa STR 12AX7A
Thank you !
Hello!
ΔιαγραφήThere could be a number of reasons why the volume drops after a few minutes. It's probably because some part is overheating. Don't turn your amp on at the monent as you could fry this part. Have your amp checked out before you do anything else.
Then, you can replace the 5881 tubes with 6L6 ones. They are pretty similar. In any case, you really got to check and bias your amp! If you're not familiar with tube amp biasing, take the amp to a qualified tech.
Cheers,
Thanos
What kind of LM-386 chip did you use exactly? There are different types (LM386M-1, LM386N-1, SO-8...). Concerning the resistors there are also different kinds of Ohms and tolerances ...
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήHello and thanks for reading my blog!
ΔιαγραφήAs I've written on this article, all resistors are 1/4W (0.25W) unless otherwise mentioned. I've used all types of 386s. The N4 is the best.
Hi Thanos,which components did you change/remove exactly on the clean channel? The gain channels fit perfect for me, but I want to get rid of the annoying distortion on the clean channel ...
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήHello! Thanks for reading my blog man! For the clean channel, I ve replaced R207, R21, C12. See the modified schematic I ve posted. The replaced components are markerd in red!
ΔιαγραφήHeyyy All, I have an RH50T, already modded to 6l6. My dream tone is a recto tone. I wonder, could the Randall benefit from a choke? As it happens, I might have a spare one. And another, bigger, better output transformer? ;)
ΑπάντησηΔιαγραφήHello and thank you for visiting my blog!
ΔιαγραφήThe rh50t would sound "tighter" with added power filtering such as a choke but bare in mind that there will be some voltage drop across it. A tube rectifier used in most boogies has lots of voltage drop across it and when the power amp is pussed, the rectifier circuit cannot deliver too much current instantly, therefore the "sagging"/compression effect kicks in. The output transformer is a totally different case. It affects the frequency response of the power amp quite a bit. A bigger tranny can deliver more bass and low end while a good tranny could also deliver more treble/presence thus increasing the bandwidth of the amp. Upgrading the transformers and adding a choke is usually a good mod but it will alter the tone. You will have to see the end result for yourself. There are easier mods you can do of course such as tweaking the preamp section to boogie specs if you compare the randall and boogie schematics. The dual recto has 5 gain stages for the OD channels and so does the rh/rg50tc. There are different cathode, grid and anode resistor/capacitor values though.
Cheers,
Thanos
Hey Thanos, I really hoped you answer, especially that the blog is quite old, but I never dreamed you answer this fast, I really appreciate it, thanks! :)
ΔιαγραφήYes seems reasonable. According to what you say, the choke would work better with the bigger output transformer. As it happens, it has a 16Ohm output as well, so I might drill a third hole on the amp and alter it to 4,8,16! :D
There is a nice mod here:http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/guitar/acapella-28/1485648-
though I never opened the amp yet to see if the specs are the same as in the website.
Your idea to tailor it to the Dual Rect's specs seems nice too! I have a Mesa, the Caliber.50, which is nice but I am disappointed in some of it's specs. For example the output tranny is quite tiny. I am really considering to keep the RH50T and sell the Mesa...
Marton
BTW I was "Anonymous", for some reason I could not set up my account right. The greek language can be tricky sometimes. :)
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